In this conversation Professor Dunleavy discusses the backlash against states following the global financial crisis. Yet, despite the rolling back of unsustainable functions by struggling states, he outlines why he believes that they remain the primary force in global politics. In support of this argument he asserts that we are in the middle of a ‘revolution’ spearheaded by the digitisation that is fundamentally changing in how we are governed. However, he concludes by suggesting that the outcome of this process is far from certain.